Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Subscribe: RSS | Listen to the Property Developer Podcast

Partnering up with somebody to do a property development project is not uncommon but would you do it with your sibling and take on some big towers? But before we get to that, here’s a quick update on my townhouse projects.

Construction is moving along nicely with project 1, most of the site is at lock up stage, which is good. Actually had a meeting with a council enforcement officer last week to discuss noise complaints from a neighbor but fortunately we were compliant with our obligations so no action will be taken against us. Been spending this week working through the usual build ability issues that pop up on site.

On my other project, we are trying to finalize all the documentation and supporting materials to go back into council for endorsement and the building permit. It seems we are getting approval for the shorter crossover alignment, which has taken nearly 12 months to resolve. I’ve also booked in the demolition of the existing house. Still a lot to do on this project with getting funding finalized and construction started.

Episode Guests

Today’s guests are brothers Fayad and Remon Fayad from Ellerson Property in Sydney. Based in Parramatta, in Sydney’s west, Fayad and Remon have between them 40 years of experience in property. Having grown up in a family of builders, the boys have joined forces to deliver a range of project in the residential, retail and commercial sectors.

In this chat, we discuss why they decided to team up, their focus on understanding the customer journey and what they learnt from the pullback of bank funding. Keep an ear out for the discussion around running design competitions.

Property Developer Training

If you are keen to get started today in learning about the property development process and what you need to do at each step, then jump into the Property Developer Training course (www.propertydevelopertraining.com). This is the program that Justin has put together to help you get quickly started in property developing.

Complete the course at your own pace and in your own time, and learn the tips, trips and techniques that Justin has used in all his projects. Find out more at www.propertydevelopertraining.com

Property Developer Quiz

Keen to find out how ready you might be to become a developer? Then take the Property Developer Quiz (www.propertydevelopertraining.com/quiz) and get a sense of where you are at…

Become a Million Dollar Property Developer

Grab my book Become a Million Dollar Property Developer about my journey into property development. This book is ideal for anyone who intends to get into small-scale property development and wants an insider’s guide to successfully obtaining wealth, fulfilment, and glory.

In this book, Justin will share how he succeeded in delivering a 20-townhouse project on his first property development project and what he learned along the way.

Many people have a dream of becoming a property developer. They aspire to build properties, grow portfolios, and amass great wealth. However, many people often struggle with making the leap into property development.

This book has the answers for how you can make the leap into property development. Grab your copy now.

Socials

If you would like to see how my projects are progressing, check out the video updates on the show’s Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/propertydeveloperpodcast] and Instagram feeds [https://www.instagram.com/property_developer_podcast/], they are both under the handle of Property Developer Podcast, so take a look at how things are going.

If you are interested in getting into property development, head over to www.propertydevelopertraining.com and take the quick quiz to see how ready you might be to get started, or if you would like to get some mentoring, email me Justin@propertydeveloperpodcast.com and I will send you some info on the program that is available to guide you through the property development process.

Links

Ellerson Property – https://ellersonproperty.com.au

Transcription

Well we’re here today to talk about property developing and the two of you have been involved in property development and you’ve partnered up and set up your own developing company but give us a bit of a background of yourselves and how you got into developing and what you’re up to. I’ve been in property for 20 years now straight out of school I was lucky enough to be involved in a family business at the outset predominantly construction, so construction background, getting buildings up more of the hands on and then more recently involved in property development side of the business acquisition funding and project marketing. And then up until recently found that that’s probably my cup of tea and teamed up with Remon to start this new venture and Ellerson. So yeah. And what about you remind me? I guess it’s it’s in our blood. So we’re we’re in development since we’re since we’re born. Great grandfather was in construction back in Lebanon. Grandfather started the original business here when he moved over early, early mid sixties. And then yeah just I mean our whole life it’s been property so go on family barbecues going a family is just always property of the uncles and cousins, everyone involved in it. So there was really not as no escape but it’s always in use genius naturally it’s involved and you’re like fade straight from school, went into the construction side and and started from there and then how did you get into doing projects again? Yeah. Just from starting from starting for construction on site, seeing how it all unfolded. Obviously learning from our father who was has been, who guided us and was our role model just just learning from him and yeah, Ellerson now gives us an opportunity to start our official first development together. There was developments that we were doing under the family umbrella together. But this is our real coming alive, we’re coming out now doing our first one together. It’s one in Parramatta which is our Heartland. So it’s an exciting ones built to run win. So one that we will always keep, so I’ll always have better sentimental value to build to rent. Products are first one and one that will always keep within the business and fired. What sort of projects were you doing along the way with a Townhouse projects? Apartment projects, what we’re cutting your teeth on straight out of school? I was laboring on apartment projects. My first foray as a site foreman was actually 14 town houses in carling furred. So my first project under my my I guess guidance or leadership were town houses after that. More multi density, so multi dwelling sort of apartments, townhouses, duplexes, villas, so that that sort of space more recently focused on apartments, medi density, high density. that’s where we are at the moment. Yeah. And what about you Remon? What sort of projects were you cutting your teeth on? I’ve got a bit more of an interesting background. When I started construction straight out of school, I went to the construction site, obviously just thinking it was going to be a part of me and following in fade footsteps following my dad’s footsteps. Probably about a month after, after HSC went on site about a month into it. I was on a Townhouse site as well, probably about 25, 25 townhouses and during the course in Taft during the, the building costs and just came home one day and pulled them aside and said, I don’t know how to tell you this, but I don’t like construction. So I always went to mom first. She was always a soft loan you can talk to, always be worried about what dad’s gonna think. So. And she said, what are you worried for? So then I had to go through it all and mentioned it to dad and dad was like, yeah, it’s no big deal is like, oh, it’s a bit easier than I thought. So he said, yeah, go out and do whatever you want. I think in the back of his mind, he always knew I would eventually come back and it’s what I did. So yeah I left the company for a bit and what often got into sports management. So managing football players and managing sports players. Which yeah I was always into sport, growing up rugby league, soccer, swimming, basketball the whole lot. So I always had that idea in my mind. But again dad was right after about and about a year yeah I came back to him and said ok yeah can you find me another job? So then he put me in the office and so it wasn’t so much the construction side of it, it was more the development side so acquisition planning sales of that kind of which has been a good balance for fate and the fate of myself, it was always a construction I and I was a bit more development. So it worked out well in the end now we’re seeing all of it together but he’s always got that extra I’ll construction and from the development of planning side it’s that’s probably my stronger point and fired. How come you decided that you would team up? We worked together hand in hand in the business, predominantly roman looked after the functions of, as you just mentioned, acquisition planning and where’s my strengths were in construction and delivery. We were prepared previously and we just decided to continue. I guess it was it was a natural, was a natural connection just an extension or a new chapter of of what we were and what we were doing best previously. So yeah, I think taking nothing away from what the old generation did. It was just, it was just about the experience with the knowledge, we had the support of family to do it. And I think it was, it was just the right time. It was just we were doing our own thing, was starting to do a bit by bit, but now we wanted to officially make it our own company and start our own, start our own thing. So to be fair to say that the projects that you’re working on previously within the your dad’s business was around delivering projects for other clients, will be doing a mix of your own stuff plus for clients. Yeah, but in the last 10 years, 10-15 years was a lot of our stuff. I mean, we do the odd development for local school, local affordable housing community, so we did bits and pieces of that. But the majority of it was for ourselves, uh, occupy build a developer with all our self. And what were the lessons that you took away from that period of time that you now plan on bringing into your own company? A lesson for myself would be starting your own company. You want to make your own decisions and you want to see it the way you like. You have a vision, you want to deliver it that way. But it’s just being open minded. Listen to what people are telling you. That’s a big that’s a big thing in in our industry in particular. I mean people are telling us what they want an apartment. So we’ve got to listen to them. It’s not we’re going to design it this way. You have to buy it. So across the whole board whether it be finance, sales, marketing, it’s listening being open minded. I mean you don’t, we are we do have the experiencing property but we’ve hired the right people and their right in their roles too. Tell us and guide us what to do. So in short, it’s what I’ve learned most is listen to other people and listen to people who have brought on rather than thinking of everything we’re about to you fired. I did this a lot early in my career is have people in I guess categories or boxes so that an architect would do X. And definitely something that I’ve learned and want to bring over is to not limit people’s discussions or interactions with them into their from their expertise because it doesn’t matter what they do. Everyone here and everyone in these circles in the property industry and they’ve all got a they’ve all got a voice, they’ve all got a experience that they’d like to share. So one thing that I have definitely taken on board and want to spread through the culture and our new entity is not connect people so much with their titles, so or their or their job, their job roles or their expertise is just if someone has a good point to say whether that’s not in this area, take it on board and embrace it and you touched. I think you mentioned that you are also responsible for project marketing fired. Is that a bit of a change generally would be a change from being in charge of delivery on the construction side to then the softer side on the marketing front? Yes. So project marketing is at the moment shared between Ramona and I. We do have marketing manager here. We have a sales manager here that oversee marketing and sales teams. It’s a different ballgame to construction, but it’s one that I watched keenly while I was in construction, I was very interested in how real estate officers would market projects. And then towards probably the last, I’d say 5 to 10 years we actually started to sell in house. So we had our in house real estate agent teams, which then meant that we had to do our own project marketing, which then brought in a project marketing team. So I always had a keen, I always had an interest in how I, a third party agent would market a project for a development for a developer where they would play see ads, how they would add it, how display a sweets and all that stuff. So when it actually got time to do that, I kind of embraced it and I it was really like a break from the everyday construction allowed me to have, I guess my creative sense was that play in that space. So what do you reckon that’s sort of one or two key things that you learned along the way about the project marketing that you’re looking to implement. Now, the key to project marketing is, and one thing we do want to implement now is it’s it’s the apart from having the apartment designed, well, the selections , up to scratch. It’s actually the experience of buying an apartment that’s that is is very important. So, we’re very mindful of the experience that our buyers or our potential buyers are about to get involved with. So we’re mapping now the journey of an apartment buyer from first interest in apartment to actually picking up their keys. And we just want to make sure that the marketing and the the involvement of it’s not just putting a for sale sign and make sure that the the apartment is sold and then delivering the key six weeks later. And one thing that gave longevity to a lot of apartment developers in the past or even real estate companies in the past. It’s the it’s the journey that the customer experiences and then that will then have get there by into the company, not just the apartment itself, the actual company and then allow if they were to buy another project or another apartment that naturally like the experience I’ve had with us and like to buy another one of our apartments. So I guess it’s all about not just not just the apartment, but the journey of purchasing. I’ve often thought I would absolutely love to be a fly on the wall during the time when the selling agents that I use are talking to potential buyers and just being able to listen in to the questions that the buyers ask. And also the things that the agents tell them. It would just be absolutely priceless to have that kind of intelligence and insight. How have you divide up the roles and responsibilities? Then again, I think he just naturally laying back to what you’re your strengths are. Uh Fate is still I mean he’s still more on site more than I am, but I’m still just naturally gravitating towards meeting and having nice friendly discussions with council trying to get things that things approved. Uh Yeah, just naturally again, but we are obviously meeting, meet all the time. Fortnightly meetings were used to split them up now they’re all just were involved in every single one of them. So yeah, the roles have now just kind of doing the same thing. But again, just naturally gravitating back towards Our key strength does come into play. But I think over time it will just be more literally split down around 50, 50 and we’ll be making the decisions together on everything. And you touched on your first project, can you give us a bit of insight around what that looks like? That’s the one in Park Street Parramatta, which is our first built to rent. It’s 22 levels above retail in CBD Parramatta 250 plus apartments in their combination of studios all the way up to three bedrooms with top level penthouse apartment. So that’s one that it’s coming up. So we’re on to level seven at the moment as we speak. and it’s it’s a pre cast construction build. We’ve done that in the past but they were generally pre cast concrete then painted or clouded or something. But this is exciting one. It’s actually, it’s going to be an exposed concrete building, obviously with elements that make it more residential, I guess, but just the way it’s all coming together, the walls coming off the back of the truck being installed and, and that’s the end product. So, it’s very exciting for, for that one, definitely. That’s his construction sites, naturally comes back. So, uh, but, and again, I’m touching, I’ll touch in the design because it’s, it’s quite an interesting design is building. , we’ll send you some pictures through so you can see, but it’s actually step building. So while it’s 23 stories one side, 23 then it steps down like every couple of levels because it’s, it’s built next to a park. So part of the whole design competition was to minimize overshadowing of the park. So it’s quite a, yeah, quite a striking design will be a signature building and paramedic because there’s, there’s very few buildings designed in that way. So yeah, be one great one. They were looking forward to delivering and keeping in the portfolio for a long time. Sorry, did you say there was a design competition? Yes, this, I went through a design competition probably 18, 24 months ago now. Uh, So yeah, it’s good. , any significant development in Parramatta over a certain amount of value needs to go through a design competition. , and this one was , this one was an interesting one because yeah, there may, the major design key was to not overshadow the park. So they did come, there was quite a few different designs how to do that. There was some that had gaps missing in the building. It was curbed, it was this one, the step building just made sense. It looked great cost wise as well. You have to keep that in mind. But yeah and I had the best outcome for layouts of apartments. So it was a good design kind of tissue. I’ve done quite a few of them now and yeah I mean we’re it’s good it’s good to go through the design competitions. You pick up things that you wouldn’t have done. It was just a straight D. A. And then what you can take them it is in your next development site or you find a new architect, you find your ideas. So while the winning design obviously doesn’t win it’s a good opportunity to just learn your things and learn your designs. So is that a process that’s run by the council or do you run that? And how do you choose people the way it works? Yeah. So council you have to do is part of a council requirement. We get to pick the three architects. So you pick three architects and then state government has and there’s a judging panel of free we pick the panels, we pick a judge sorry. So there has to be like experience of their property. So it could be like a Town planner and architect or urban designer. So they’re one of the judges, the other judges something that council picks and then the government architect picks someone as well. So yeah usually about a 4-6 week period for the architects too present their get their designs ready and then another week or probably about a week or two process of presenting, doing presentations and then yeah they bought the panel goes away in about a week or two. They pick a pick a winner and then from there you you do your your D. A. That architect is locked in to do your D. A. Process. So it’s probably about a 2 to 2 to three month process from start to finish over a design competition. Again depending on how big it is. We’ve done others where it’s 1000 unit block with about 20,000 square meters of commercial. That’s another one that we’ve done. So that was a lot trigger. We counsel wanted nine architect obviously will delay you and drag out a bit more and more costly. But yeah it’s just it’s just getting involved with council early. We get to write the design brief as well. Which obviously helps because if you gave counsel free rein to do a design brief aid. Yeah put gold help panels everywhere. Yeah which is good. So we’ve known that we’ve done quite a lot of them now so we know how to do them to the best, best for council and best for us. So I was going to ask you about the design brief, so it’s good that you’ve got control of that. And then with with the project, what was the reasoning behind wanting to do, build for rent? Was that mainly driven by the softness of the market or was a strategic move to grow your balance sheet? Yeah, this one in Parramatta was, we decided that on the outset to this would be a bill to rent predominantly because of the location being in Parramatta. And we did, as I mentioned earlier, we had some projects that ended up having residual stock we kept so that we had that, then we learned the bill to rent function and adopted it within our business. So then then the next round of projects, we mark this one in Parramatta to actually be built to rent from the outset. So we had a discussion with our funding partners, so we structured the loan and a deal to to have in a sense of, so there’s no pre sales or no requirement to sell the apartments. There was a structured in a way which enabled us to to complete and then and and and keep and and have tenants and and rent them and eventually have something for the long term to hold and add to our pipeline of retained apartments. And there’s another development that we’re doing in Parramatta too. So obviously we can’t compete with ourselves, we’re doing one that across the road actually, that’s where currently selling their the South Court of Development. So yeah, it’s a bit of flexibility. And again, to show our range as well, we can do the bills around and we can do the traditional built to sell. I was about to ask about your pipeline, so I’m glad that you j ped in there. Tell us a bit about the other projects are built to sell one. Uh It’s quite a better built to sell in the pipeline. Two that stand out for me to be one in Roseberry, which called the lane Ways the reason it stands out because we probably kind of stepped out of our comfort zone a bit and moved out of Western Sydney. 218 apartments scheduled to be finished by March next year. Sales have been going well. And another interesting thing about that is the buyers in the Western Sydney. It’s a lot of investor buyers people wanted just to get into the property market where at Rosa Very, we’ve seen it’s a lot of people and occupiers so quite a few variation requests and changes and do this and do that and extra parking and what not. So it’s been a learning experience but it’s it’s been a it’s been a good development being received well by local public and as well by the agents who said the other quality is good. And even in a tough market it’s it’s still selling well which is good uh at good prices. That yeah that’s one basically because it’s better out of our comfort zone. But the one coming back closer I think would have to be Maryland’s which is our Maryland’s development right in the town centre on Maryland station. I just think in terms of location affordability and growth Maryland’s is probably the new like the little brother of Parramatta but significantly cheaper and a lot more affordable. We’ve found that a lot of people buying their can’t afford to buy in Parramatta so they’re just naturally coming there and it’s amazing. I mean I think it’s like $200,000 price difference from Maryland to Parramatta. And it’s only like it’s one station, five minute drive. So it’s yeah, I definitely think Maryland’s is great development. But even for people looking in the future for investment even to live, I think that’s marylanders are, it would be the area that I tell someone to buy if they ask before there ask me for their opinion and you just touched on around moving out of your comfort zone and being a learning experience being in Roseberry. What are the other lessons or what are the things that you’re learning along the way there? The idea of bringing and listening to the end user, the customer and the apartment buyer into how they want their apartments designed this project gave us the opportunity to deal with it on the run rather than have something to say. Well, we’d like to be the developer that listens to apartment buyers and designs it for them. While we were doing that, we’re actually dealing with sales on the run. So it gave us real life working examples to allow us to step out of our comfort zone or do something different, but at the same time, not just planned for it and then roll it out actually plan for it. But doing it as you’re planning and as you’re building the processes actually gave us a good real life working example. Yes. Well, based on my own experience, the variations of where the problems tend to pop up towards the end or at the end, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Actually selling off the plan. So it’s don’t really have to deal with that much. But yeah, Roseberry, it’s uh different market but it’s good. Yeah, we’ve learned and probably something that would yeah look to continue their more spread our wings a bit and yeah keep staying out of our, out of our comfort zone and get a bit more Sydney wide rather than just Western Sydney. I think we’re ready for it now if the opportunity would come up again, I’m glad you touched on learning experiences because I was keen to know whether there’s been a challenging obstacle or a setback at some point in a project or along the way that at the time was pretty challenging. But then upon reflection you look back and go it was a fantastic learning experience shopping center build. So we we actually completed a project in Parramatta that had a rather than just having a left behind retail on the ground floor is actually built super supermarket with a shopping centre surrounding with apartments on top that one. My previous work was predominantly residential. So one key takeaway from building that project was definitely a lot of planning needed to come in place. It kind of flip it, flip the planning from building apartments, then building some shelves at the base and then and then just allowing the tenants to fit out with the shopping center is, it was a major learning curve because the tenants, we needed to do a lot of the fit out for them. particularly because we kept that shopping center where I’m going to is that it kind of redirected the project management team and the everyday processes on site to be more and this again, this happens every day, but in our sense and from guess a big learning curve was two which we’ve now taken on board and then being able to learn from moving forward, is that previous to that, we were building apartments with retail spaces that were just filled in at the end, that one project we we commenced and the, at the outset we had that mentality in mind and that mindset in mind, but then as we’re building through, we worked out that a lot of our attention diverted from completing the apartments are coming back down to the the shopping center. and then I guess it kind of shifted the thought pattern after we completed that project, from looking at all avenues of the project during construction. I mean, sorry, at the outset for planning, so it may not sound as a big learning curve to someone else, but the reason why it stands out to me is because it can’t shifted our flow or a natural rhythm from being an apartment builders with retail at the base to actually real mixed use precinct deliverers, if that’s a word. So that was one big takeaway that we didn’t plan from the outset, but we learned on the first hand experience on the way through, which were then radically changed our process is moving forward in terms of construction planning. And what about you, remind you? Got one that stands out? not why in particular was obviously recently, probably two years ago and the whole bank, royal commission came into play that kind of through the probably industry, through it out a little bit uh for a few spanners in the works obviously day to day, it was dealing with the big four banks and that was it. A Royal commission came in and they kind of just said we’re not doing any more construction on land anything. So that was literally like an overnight thing. It wasn’t finished this job and then see you later. It was just we’re not doing anymore. So that was, that was a big learning curve for me, which turned out to be good because it allowed us the opportunity to travel overseas, meet new funders, deal with chinese, Hong kong, even indian banks, Singapore Ian and just showing what we could deliver and showing our track record. There was no hesitation. There was no, there was no doubt by these funders. They were they were dealing with business people, you’re dealing with people that was their own money. So they wanted to see if they wanted to see deals get done. And when we showed our portfolio, when we showed a track record, there was no hesitation and it ended up Being a better outcome, could allow us to grow and quiet more property and and do like this bill to rent. So dealing with the Funders now, we’ve met them, I mean, a natural normal bank would very, very rarely allow you to do a bill to rent. You have to sell 100% of your product even more to start construction. I mean, in this market, that’s just not going to happen while it shook us, shook us up while it just, yeah, readjust when it first came in, this our Royal commission. It was what we do now, but it turned out to be, it turned out to be a great thing. I mean, you pay a bit more with the private lenders, but they do 1000 times quicker. So yeah, it’s it’s it turned out to be a better way and I think that’s just the way moving forward. I think the banks now have eventually come back, but I mean I think they’re just kind of lost their edge in terms of construction and property finance now. So yeah, that’s probably the biggest biggest one for me that made us adjust quickly and you have learned a lot from It is going to be interesting to see what happens with the funding market over the next couple of years because as you say, soft conditions getting 100% debt cover is really challenging and the project may not even be that risky. Exactly, yeah, exactly. Which is now you’re seeing a lot of build to rent. So it did take a while for build to rent to come up. But now the government is allowing a lot more incentives and funders are starting to and finances are starting to understand that a bit more. So yeah, it’s it’s it’s yeah, I think, I think it is the way of the future, the private private funding and then what’s the best piece of advice you reckon you’ve ever received from my dad? When I first got back into the development side of it, we bought a side in, he bought a site in Parramatta. There’s another gateway site actually close to the one that we’re doing in the build to rent one. Now it’s literally across the road from that. This is my first one where I did the D. A. On my own, did a design competition, Got the approval so I was young too and I got it all done. I was like a 36 story tower, I was proud of myself. And then I got it approved. A couple of weeks later dad said we’re selling that. I was like no, but I’ve done all this like I’ve got this approved for you, what are you doing? And he said, no, we’re getting a good price. Let’s go, let’s move on, let’s buy and sell it. Go buy a few more and move on. I was I was actually upset myself. So he pulled me aside and they just said that the line that he said to me is like never fall in love with the development and always make business decisions with your head, not your not your heart. And while we do love and stand behind our products, it makes sense. I mean, you need to keep moving, you can’t stop. And if you get too attached to something it’s it’s you’re gonna end up spending more, you know, leading towards a little bit more and neglecting the others. So yeah, that’s the piece of advice that’s stuck with me. It’s yet just do it based on business decisions with your head, not your heart and they don’t fall in love with the property fired. What about you? Did you get the same piece of from your old man or you got something different for us? I get slightly different. But I guess the same same mindset he’d always be and this is probably the one I live by very, very regularly he’d say. And he still does. So sorry, he stick with your plan or sorry, your vision, your target, don’t take your eye off your target but be flexible in the approach. So although you may have a target in your mind Or an achievement set out for 12 or three years time, don’t change that. And but be adaptive with the plan. So you may set out on a plan to start with to achieve that goal, couple of weeks in a couple months in a couple of days in that plan may not roll out the way you want it to be. So you just accept the fact that the pathway to that goal would always be changing. and that way it would allow you to adapt and get there because if you’re, if you are stuck stuck on your path to achieve that goal and there’s an obstacle in the way you’ll never get there. So you’ve got to look at different opportunities and different ways to get there as long as it ultimately leads to that to that goal to that target. Just be flexible, flexible and fixed on the target, flexible in the approach. And what about your top tip to people that are listening out there that are thinking, I want to take my developing business to the next level. What would your top piece of advice be for them have a balance still in life. You got to do it? Development, That’s, that’s great. But I still think you need, , to step away from it at the same time, not stuff. So I’m not step away, have to have a break. You know what I mean? Like don’t, don’t be 24 7 property, otherwise you’ll, you’ll burn out. I mean we do live and breed property, but soon as we leave the office, it stops and my switch off is basketball or something. Like I look up to Lebron James. So I just, when I finished work, I’ll go home and I’ll just watch him and that will just clear your mind of the day you’ve had and just let you switch off. So just having another hobby. I mean being passionate about what you do, but also having that flexible, flexible work life balance would be my tip I had. What about you? My tip would be more like industry specific. A lot of developers out there, very n bers based. They’re very put projects together based on spreadsheets and that. So I guess just have a bit of fun in your, in your development and that gives you longevity. You know what I mean by fun is build something that you would you’d like to live in. Don’t always think, well this is not right for the area or don’t worry, this is only a rental or this is just be a bit more flexible, be a bit more imaginative in apartments because it gives you pride in what you do, generates a great culture around you and it’s key to longevity in the industry, both internally from your, your, your own staff, but externally as well from your, the end users. So just be a bit bit flexible and kind of shake the rules a little bit from typical property development. Just have a bit of fun and put up apartments that you’d like to live in. Fantastic. Well, if people want to find out more about you or about Ellison’s, where should they have? So they can head to our website Ellison property dot com dot au. they can get in touch with us there or they could come visit us in Parramatta, so we’re happy to take your call or be ready to show you around social media. Fantastic. Well, it’s been great speaking with you today guys. Hearing your story and where you’ve come from. Sounds like you’ve got some great projects on the go and I’m sure there’s more to come. I really appreciate you sharing your towel with us today on the property developer podcast.